S2E12 with Dr. Josh Mirmelli, PSY.D - Flipping the Script On Imposter Syndrome

Meet Dr. Josh Mirmelli, PSY.D

Dr. Mirmelli is a Licensed Psychologist based in Los Angeles, committed to helping individuals navigate deep emotional challenges such as trauma, discrimination, and self-abandonment through a powerful yet holistic approach.

On today’s episode, we’re diving into a feeling so many of us wrestle with, but rarely talk about out loud—imposter syndrome. That nagging voice in your head that says you don’t belong, that you’ve fooled everyone, and that it’s only a matter of time before you’re “found out.” Whether you’re a student, a creative, a leader, or just trying to keep it all together, that inner doubt can creep in and cloud even your brightest moments.

During our conversation, we’ll unpack where imposter syndrome comes from, why it shows up, and how it impacts our confidence, performance, and mental health. More importantly, we’ll explore what it actually means to feel like an imposter—and how, often, it’s the people doing the most meaningful work who feel it the deepest. Spoiler alert: you’re not alone, and you’re definitely not a fraud.

Dr. Mirmelli shares his own personal journey along with a few practical strategies and mindset shifts to help you take back your power and own your success—without apology. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, you are meant to be exactly where you are!  

To learn more about Dr. Mirmelli, visit: https://therapywithdrjosh.com/

Thank you for joining us and we can't wait to welcome you back again next week! New episodes drop every Thursday and can be found wherever you find your favorite podcasts!  

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Want to learn more about our host, Eric Nicoll?  Visit:  https://ericnicoll.com

Transcript

0:05

Hello everyone. Welcome to the Just Do You Podcast. My name is Eric Nicoll, and I'm your host. If you are a first time listener, welcome to the conversation and if you're a regular, I'm honored that you've decided to join me for another episode. I. The Just Do You Podcast is centered around a network of conversations, which are meant to connect us, to inspire us, to find our own confidence, our own voice, and to live our own truth. And who knows, we might even learn a little something new that ultimately allows us to live in the sweet spot that I like to call the Just do you space of being. Each week, I have the privilege of sitting down for unscripted conversations with friends, family, colleagues, community leaders, and influencers that all share their own personal journeys. I hope that you enjoy our time together as much as I have. We are certainly gonna laugh, and yes, we might even cry a little, but in the end, we are gonna know that we're not alone during our life's journey. So are you ready? Great. Let's do this. Welcome to the conversation. All right everyone. Welcome to today's episode. I am really excited to introduce you to my guest. I have been following this guest on social media and am completely taken by their commitment to making a difference in people's lives. So we're just gonna jump right in and introduce everyone today to Dr. Josh Mirmelli. Hi, Josh. Good morning. I'm so happy to be here, Eric. And one thing I said to you, I just wanna point out to your listeners is it's really early and I was saying most people don't see me except for my kids and maybe my husband before 7:00 AM. So same talk about vulnerability. Exactly. It's we're in this together. We're in it together. And it's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you. No, thank you. And can I be so bold as to call you Josh or do you prefer Dr. Mirmelli? Please call me Josh. Okay. Yes. Sounds good. I'm excited about today's conversation for a multitude of reasons. Like I said, I've been following you on social media and came across your platform. A while ago and in the midst of this conversation that we are all in currently, and especially the LGBTQ plus community, I thought it was important to maybe have a conversation about imposter syndrome and you and I talked a little bit about that leading up on our intel call, and it's just something that I haven't been able to stop thinking about this last couple of weeks. And so I'm excited to talk about that today and thank you for coming on and imparting your wisdom on us. I think it's a, an important conversation. What I'd like to do though, is just introduce you a little bit and then I have a couple questions that will launch us into this conversation. Is that okay? Great. Go for it. All right. So for our listeners Josh is a Los Angeles based psychologist that is really dedicated to supporting people through a wide range of emotional challenges. And his mission is to go beyond helping to navigate. These difficulties and he really strives to guide people through personal growth and healing and self discovery. And I'm always one that says that we all need to take a look at ourselves. We all need to make sure that we are being the best selves that we can be. And sometimes it really helps to have someone else in our corner. I am a huge proponent of therapy, have been through it many times and have relied a lot on my therapist to help, guide me through some pretty tumultuous times. Me, you but I love that you have a holistic approach. And we're gonna talk a little bit about that, but you said something in your bio that I thought was really. And powerful, and it said, I'm just gonna read this. It says, our feelings are meant to be felt. Embracing and experiencing our emotions is essential to living fully feelings, service signals, guiding us towards deeper understanding and growth. And a lot of times when we go through, I. Difficult circumstances or difficult times, we tend to not want to feel, we tend to bury, I'm speaking from personal experience. We tend to bury, we tend to push aside, we tend to deflect and maybe hopes that it will go away. So I'm excited to talk today about that and how that relates to imposter syndrome. Before we do that though. I wanna take you back just a little bit. I love to take my guests back to their childhood. Now it's my turn. Great to have a conversation with you. Would you give us a little sense of the young, Dr. Josh, where were you born? Where'd you grow up? I. Only child. Give us those details and we'll go from there. Absolutely. I was not a doctor Josh back then. I was Josh, or Josh or Joshua. I grew up in the eighties, early nineties in Miami Beach, Florida. Excuse me. I have one older sister who's nine years older who's actually also a therapist. Oh wow. In Miami, an amazing therapist and two parents, a mom and dad. My dad is a still practicing allergist. My mom is a still practicing homemaker and so much love, so much support. And I also grew up in a world where. Being gay was different from what it is like today, and I knew from a very early age, probably around five, six, that something was different, bullied terribly in school, and really grew up with a sense of enormous fraudulence and an enormous sense that there's something wrong with me and. We talk very lightly about these themes and threads, but to grow up as a five, six, 7-year-old kid with a sense of there's something wrong with me is an enormous burden to carry and really impacted my development, really impacted my self perception. And in some ways really informed why I do the work that I do today. But I really, from a very early age not only knew and felt that I was different, I. But I also had a sort of growing tenacity that I really just was gonna be myself, and I'm so grateful for that. A lot of kids don't have the privilege of growing up with that, and I feel very honored and blessed to be able to do that. In some ways, it was informed by my parents, although my mom had a very difficult time initially accepting that I was gay. And I came out at a really young age. I was 13. Today we hear kids coming out at seven. But it was a different era and world. And so those experiences really shaped the way that I viewed myself. They shaped my sense of security and confidence and. They really allowed me to have the conversations that I do with folks today who are struggling similarly with identity. Where do you think I have another question before I ask that question. You mentioned feelings are meant to be felt, so I think it's important for somebody who's listening who may have not gone through the coming out process, what does that feel like? What are the feelings? You're 6, 7, 8 years old, you're having these feelings that you're different. What does that feel like? What are some of the things that are going on in your head so that somebody might understand what that's like? Because you can never really fully understand unless you've walked a mile in that shoe shoes, right? But what does that feel like? Tremendous shame, self doubt, insecurity. Terror. So much fear was pervasive early on in my life. From the bullying, just the magnitude of that was so enormous. It was everything. Terror was just a pervasive theme in my life. And fraudulence, there's really something wrong with me. Yeah. That's a lot to put on such a young age, especially. I will defer to you as the professional, but that's a very young age and a very impressionable age to be holding such heavy emotions as shame and guilt and fear. I think. Just, what's the word I want to use again, it's early, so I'm trying to process my thought. It's difficult enough to be a child going through all of the processes of a quote unquote, normal childhood. You know that acceptance, even if you're not thinking that there's something wrong with you, right? All of that is so heavy, and I've always said that we top that off by not. Necessarily having a language or a curriculum, if you will, in our schools to teach these differences and how to relate and how to respond, and how to be in a conversation about those differences. Maybe now is different. I was 24 when I came out. So I carried that guilt and that shame and that terror from the age of about 6, 7, 8, when I first realized until I was 24. And so that was a long time to Yes. Carry that. And I've had to unpack that for pretty much my entire life. So it's huge. A lot to, it's huge. A lot to put on a child. When you were going through school and you were at that age, you said that you had this kind of tenacity to push through. And you said a little bit could have come from your parents? What was that conversation like? I'm just gonna push through or I can get past this. Or was it fight or flight? What was it? I think it was all of it. A lot of fight or flight. A lot of freezing. I. A, conversations with my parents. I will say my father was enormously supportive initially, and both of my parents are incredibly supportive today, so I'm really grateful for that. It took my mom a long time to accept. She really felt like I was going through a phase and in some ways I questioned whether I was as well. But I'm so grateful to say I really had this courage in me to. I don't know how restricted we are on language on this podcast. Can I just speak freely? 100%. I didn't give a fuck. There was a part of me that was you know what, this is me. I'm gonna be myself and take it or leave it. And I still really have some of that, we talked, you just mentioned we don't really have the language in schools to support identity development across, so many different potential outcomes and maybe things are different, I think is what you said today. My son, I'm so blessed, goes to. School and in Los Angeles, and it is one of the most incredible schools. It's a multi-ethnic, multicultural, such a supportive, beautiful, enriching environment. Out of 18 students in his class. Four or five come from families with same sex parents. Which is so incredible. I did not have that experience as a child. Yeah. People assume Miami, you grew up in Miami, you must have been dancing on tables in South Beach. It was not like that. Miami is a very liberal isolated pocket in a. State that is not and it's just so encouraging and beautiful to watch my son have this experience and to support him in having this experience. But back to me the conversations with my parents really looked quite complex. I was supported in some ways and. I think inadvertently shamed in, in some ways without my parents perhaps realizing that, I was encouraged and I went to vocal coaching to try and deepen my voice. The woman who, did that work, should be fired listening to me now. But I was really encouraged to be on this kind of heteronormative developmental path, which I just didn't fit. Yeah. Wow. That's incredible actually. Heard a lot of things. That's the first yeah. So there is this sense of, in today's world, I obviously am around a lot of people that have a lot of kids and Yeah. In my daily world, which I'm very blessed to have, I would love to have children of my own. Unfortunately, I did not. So I had the pleasure of experiencing my friends' children. Sometimes that's a blessing. Yes. Sometimes that's blessing. You get to say goodbye, I get to say goodbye. Yeah. And see you next time. But, it's fascinating, the conversations that as an adult now I'm having with my friends that have children and the conversations that they're having to have with their kids is a completely different conversation. I grew up from totally divorced parents and my dad had PhD in psychology. My mom was a teacher. My mom of course struggled with it. Just like I think most moms do. They have certain expectations for their sons or assumptions. Again, back, I, this was in, obviously the eighties. Didn't have the languaging either to understand. The people that we knew in our family that were part of the L-G-B-T-Q community were my mom's hairdresser who was incredibly flamboyant. So her association to that world was Mr. Albert, and I certainly didn't want to be Mr. Albert. I wanted to be me. And yet. We were all lumped in together. Now there's such a freedom and such a opportunity to be yourself and to be unique. Yet at the same time, there is a thumb on top of it, especially now as it's coming from, multiple sources, which we're not gonna get into today. So there's gotta be difficult. Back to you for a second. Gone through school, did you know how early on did you know that you wanted to be a psychologist or in the mental health game? I'm glad you brought that up. Pretty early on I think it was around the time that I came out, I had this amazing family therapist. My parents were savvy and, wise and supportive enough to bring in a family therapist, whose first name was Lori, and. She's still practicing and she is incredible. We we actually talk semi-regularly. She's just an amazing woman and has been a, in some ways surrogate parent to me all these years. But I really learned around the time that I was in family therapy that there was something quite special and magical about the work that could take place in a therapist's office. And, she really inspired me. She gave me a sense of hope and she really helped to normalize so many of the experiences that I was navigating. I really, more than anything felt like a pariah, like a total outcast, and that my experience was really singular. And that no one else could relate. And she really helped to reframe that for me. And I felt a part of something bigger than just myself, which was so liberating. To be honest. And encouraged me to find community and to join support groups. And, again, this is. Almost 30 years ago. So it was a different era. It really was a totally different era. There were no shows like euphoria and the only show that I can recall at that point in time that gave glimpses into the LGBTQ plus world was Queerest folk. And for those who remember that show, it was an amazing show, but incredibly sexualized. And. In some ways scary because as I was watching that show in my bedroom, my mom was also watching that show. She rooms over and was sitting there probably biting her nails in terror that I was gonna be a circuit boy. And while I definitely had moments in my past where that could have been a reality come to fruition, that was not the path for me ultimately. Sure. Sure. So you went to college? Yes. Was life different for you? Obviously you went to college, was life different for you over those years after you came out? Obviously, like you said, it got easier. I'm sure there were difficult moments. There always are. But when the bullying stops per se, and that elementary school and you go into high school and college, what was that like for you? Yeah. I've gotta be candid. I would love to say that once the bullying stopped, my sense of self was cohesive and I was put back together. But the truth is, the external bullying had come to an arrest. I. Yet I found myself engaging in a lot of self bullying. Okay. And a lot of inner torment still took place. And I turned to things to numb myself and that included substances. And I went through a period of if my life where, I really numbed that way. I am so fortunate to be out of that. But it was really tough, the next. Eight, 10 years of my life and, it wasn't all terrible. I had some wonderful experiences and met incredible people, but I went through a period of time where I really was adopting that bullying and internalizing it myself. And had a lot of shame and a lot of self-doubt and a lot of fear and in some ways still working through that. It's an ongoing journey. Sure. I would assume that's. Common. Yes. From your professional standpoint that you deal a lot with that, with your patients, that they still go through that. And once the bullying outward bullying stops, the inward, bullying continues and can in many cases, I'm sure, be incredibly detrimental. Correct.'cause you never step away from it. It's always there. It's a really, there's no vacation. I just got the chills on that too. It's strange sensation that I just felt.'cause I, you realize that you do that to yourself quite often, so Yes. Powerful. Yeah, it's a lot. So I want to get into the conversation of imposter syndrome, but I just wanna acknowledge one quick thing before we do that. Please. I wanna say congratulations on an amazingly beautiful relationship and two children. That's, thank you. Incredible. That could be a, everyone means a lot. That could be a whole other podcast about parenting. It could be you're getting and parenting and all that comes with it. That could be a whole separate podcast. So even we have back, we'll have you come back and talk about that one. We, once we get past the imposter syndrome. Yeah, but I'd love to talk about that because it's been something that I've been thinking a lot about lately, especially these last couple years since my divorce. And coming into a new era of myself have had conversations with many people about this, it comes up quite a bit. So I'm excited to sit down and have a conversation with you to walk us through that. So if you wouldn't mind, I would love you to explain to the listener who may or may not know, like what is imposter syndrome, and then let's get into some dialogue about it. Yeah, totally. Look, in a nutshell, I would say imposter syndrome firstly is not a clinical diagnosis. And I'll explain later why I actually wanna frame imposter syndrome as imposter experience. We'll get into that in a couple minutes, but Sure. It's really a psychological pattern where high achieving individuals doubt their accomplishments. They fear being found out, seen as a fraud. It's really rooted in perfectionism, fear of failure, and a distorted self assessment rather than actual incompetence. Common, super common. And I tell people all the time, if you've not experienced imposter experience or imposter syndrome. I'm not interested in a dialogue, and the reason is that imposter syndrome or experience really comes from a place where we're pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone. Where we're on the brink of trying something novel, trying something scary. And if you haven't done that, if you've only lived within your comfort zone, back to Brene Brown for a second, you I'm not interested in being in the rink with you. I'm just not, she says that a lot. She sure does. She says that a lot. She sure does. So where I get that, and I think it's, I. A great place to start. Where does it start though? Does it start early on in our youth and in our childhood and we just don't know what that is based off of external experiences from our family and friends and environment? Or where does it really start? A great question. A couple places. I think it, it starts with childhood messaging. We're praised for performance. Not efforts, there's a conditional worth that kind of develops. It's also cultural messaging. I think that marginalized groups often internalized doubt when they don't see people who look like them or us in positions of power. Also just role confusion within, family systems, the smart one, the caretaker being labeled or dub in a certain role. So it's cultural and familial, I would say, in most cases. And you said two words, performance versus effort. I think that's important. So can you say a little bit more about that? Totally. When we're reinforced conditionally for getting that a, rather than putting in the effort and trying really hard. And so many of us receive that and in my own parenting, I really have to be conscious. My son is not yet, children are not yet at the age is where, they're getting grades, but really reinforcing effort. Just trying, being in the rink. Rather than winning the match. And that's really hard. We live in a world and in society, social media, where we just see outcomes. We don't see the process. And the outcomes aren't necessarily always the outcomes. Correct. Exactly. They can be fabricated, which I think has. Again, we're just popping out episodes here, left and right. We really are. Listen to us. I think you could be a regular listen to us, but I think that's what's so frustrating today. Being an adult and trying to navigate this new, I shouldn't say new, makes me sound like my grandfather navigating this world, which is there is so much comparison. There is so much comparison. Starting this podcast was a huge. It took me two years to actually pull the trigger. And then once you do, and once it's out, you sit and question every single week, is this episode going to resonate? Is there going to be following listeners, likes, all of those things. And then we've gotta contend with social media and we have to, oh, contend with the responses. Now I'm very blessed in that the responses have been super popular. The flip side is this. Sense of if you don't have thousands and thousands of downloads, you're not successful. And it actually took a conversation with someone that I had lunch with just a few days ago on the weekend where they said, yeah, but if you helped one person. With an episode, doesn't that mean that you're doing your job? And it really shook me to my core that I had, even though I knew that we were making a difference, because I was hearing from people that my brain and that perfectionism and that desire to be perfect was guiding the ship as opposed to that one person who could have listened and changed their perception on our community or had a shift in thought. Amazing. Again, not about me, but that's just my experience and so I think it's really difficult and I can't imagine the difference in. Your therapy between now and let's say prior to social media? That has to be, oh my gosh. A completely disruptive model to our senses. Because back then we just had our own, and again, my assumption, correct me if I'm wrong, but our own little insular worlds at our school, for instance, when we're in high school or elementary school. And our world exists in that playground or in that classroom. Totally. Or on that sports field. And now it exists. Yeah. It comes from every which angle. There isn't a moment, and I say this a lot, we don't give ourselves a moment to exhale. No. And so that's gotta be difficult, beyond difficult. And to bring it back to me for a second and personalize this, I sincerely don't know that I would have made it through my adolescence and high school years. Really if social media existed. I, there's a high chance that I wouldn't be talking to you right now because it was so debilitating. I really grappled with severe depression, severe, and I don't know that I would've made it out alive, honestly. It is atrocious, the things that happen on social media and look, you brought up comparisons. I think the issue with social media is that we're comparing our insides, our inner experiences to others, external portrayals. So it's not apple for apple, we're comparing something or things that really don't belong in the same realm together, and that becomes really dangerous. I always put my guess on the spot. Will you say that one more time? Sure. We're comparing our inner experience. How we feel inside to others', external portrayals, their outward demonstrations and what are some of the things that, and emotions that can cause shame, despair, envy, anger. Just a tremendous sense of fraudulence. I'm doing this all wrong, and by the way, I'm guilty as charged. I catch myself all the time watching, people on these yachts and thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing wrong with my life? It's impossible to not be impacted. So I think it's an important point to make that as the listener. Here you are young Josh, growing up, and we're just using you as an example. Yes. Growing up with that shame, with that guilt, with that fear, with that anger, with that sense of fraudulence as a child, you've navigated your path through all that you've survived. You have thrived. You are now, in this. Space of a professional, a husband, a father, a community member, a therapist, and yet here you still stand having those same feelings that you had as a child, as an adult, as we compare ourselves on social media. And I think if people really listen to that and take on the conversation, and I say this a lot, but it just is my. I'm really big into breathing right now. And breath work and exhaling and inhaling as a sense to center and kind of calm my own anxiety. But I think it's interesting that we do not have an opportunity to take a breath. No. And when we're comparing ourselves I'm with you. There are a couple people I follow on Instagram and I find myself at times being really angry at them. Like you said, what did I do wrong? How come I don't have that? Why am I not in that space? And then I look back and I think nope. You don't know their circumstances, right? You don't know the situations in which they are living. You don't know what it takes to get there. You and I very easily could, hire a yacht. Post some videos and have people think that's the life that you're living. But that takes away from the authenticity. And I think one of the things that was really important for me when I launched this podcast about just do you, is being that authentic self almost to a fault. Like truly being your authentic self. And what that takes and the amount of energy and work that it takes to presence that on a daily basis. And to stay true to that is tough. Because we wanna go a different direction, especially when we find ourselves in difficult situations or circumstances when within our life, oh, our life would be so much easier if we had this right. Oh, if we could just be like such and such, or so and and I think we as adults even get into this very destructive pattern. Of conversation. So is that imposter syndrome, how does that relate then to the imposter syndrome or the imposter experience, which I love? Yeah. Now opportunity in some ways I think it's intimately related, and it doesn't really end. I have the privilege of working with a lot of folks who are in the entertainment space. Some are wildly successful and they still experience, the sense of fraudulence, the sense of, I'm not quite there yet. The sense of, my experience is not as significant as so and so because of, their accomplishments compared to mine. So it, it's a never ending journey. And, you brought up a great point. My feelings are very similar to the ones that I endured and experiences as a child, but my relationship to those feelings have changed. Okay. I'm able to question them, to scan for the evidence. Yeah, let's talk about that for a minute. Yeah, because I think that's a great point. So now you're in a space where you can actually question those. So talk a little bit about that. I. Yeah, absolutely. I really am able to identify, and I think for all of us enduring imposter syndrome, we've gotta really, name it to tame it, identify those feelings. I, I also encourage folks and I myself keep a wins list. I actually have I'm staring at the, folder of it. Right now I have a WINS folder where I write down, not on a daily basis, but I would say a weekly, semi-weekly, sometimes basis, all of the perceived wins that I've experienced that week, so it's about re regarding our attention, and I talk about it. I'm very open. I contained a lot of those fraudulent feelings as a child. I didn't have the space to be able to talk about it openly. It wasn't safe to talk about it openly. I would be pummeled, beaten down for talking openly about my experiences of fraudulence and fear. But I have folks like you who I'm able to talk about this with today. And it's a game changer. So shame thrives in secrecy. It's rooted in secrecy, in hiding. When we talk about our experiences, the shame dissipates in fraudulence and imposter syndrome are intimately related to shame. And where does the shame come from? And we get a little deep, but where does that come from? I think it's cultural messages, it's familial messages. It's, comes from comparisons. Shame, shame is that sense that there's something really wrong with me. It differs from guilt. Guilt is more of I've done something wrong. Okay. So the guilt is more prevalent and I think, is that true? So the guilt is more prevalent. So in our earlier years when we start to have that shame and that guilt about maybe realizing or. F assuming something is wrong with us or something's different. So that then can then manifest itself and also grow. I like to use the word fester a lot. Fester, yeah. In our own minds. So that fear and that shame comes from our own inner dialogue about that there's something wrong. I guess I wanna go a little bit deeper. Where does that something wrong, quote unquote. Come from, is it comparison or is it could be that someone said something to us, right? Can't you be more like your brother or your dad? Or your sister. Is that, am I tracking on that?'cause how do we as a child know. Or assume that something's wrong, that something's different. Is that an emotion? What is that? I think it comes from comparisons not seeing folks like us. Yeah. It can come from small comments or big statements and experiences, but I also think that imposter syndrome or imposter experience and pathologize normal doubt. Some normal doubt is appropriate. It's developmentally consistent and I think in certain ways, keeps us in check. If we didn't have normal doubt, we'd all be narcissists. So I think it's important to differentiate imposter syndrome or experience from normal doubt. And the reason I call it imposter experience, if not imposter syndrome, is that. I don't believe that it's a fixed identity. I think imposter experiences can be contextual in nature. It depends on the context that we're in, but to answer your question, more explicitly, I think it can come from, I. External messages that we internalize, and it can come from looking around and not seeing many people like us in our same space and marginalized communities experience imposter syndrome in much higher degrees than folks who are not. Yeah, I can remember the first time that I had feelings for a fellow classmate in school. Me too. And yet me too. Hopefully it wasn't the same classmate. It wasn't. It may or may not have been this. He was, he was. He. Amazing actually. Yeah. And yeah oof memories. So I remember that. But I also remember the emotions that I felt because I liked Billy. And I was supposed to like. Susie. Because all my friends liked Susie and why did I like Billy? And yet I was afraid to ask, was it okay to like Billy. My mom was a teacher in the school that I went to all through my life. Wow. Which was a blessing and a curse. Yes. It was great to have her there. Especially when I turned 16. I got to take the car from school, but. Growing up in those years, it was difficult'cause I was afraid of being found out, obviously. And I do remember the tremendous shame that came from that. And yet, as an adult, I look back at that and I think, how sad is that I. Many people, countless people in our community go through that experience. Yes. As a child in that moment, that should be beautiful and should be celebrated. Do you like Billy? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it and yes, it's okay. Those are feelings, those are emotions. Those are a sense of, what do you like about Billy? And I would remember, and Billy's a fake name, but I remember being around him and feeling good. Feeling excited to see him on the playground every morning, but then would be just riddled with guilt and shame. And I realized as we were just talking, I had these little flash moments of experiences through my elementary school, junior high school, and even college experience. And that transitioned into college when I was. Dating before I'd come out, the director of Greek and residential life at my university. But I had to tag along with he and his girlfriend, end quote, because he couldn't be found out. And I had guilt and shame about that. And if you then can contextualize this and then put it into, I carried that through all of my relationships, all of'em. Wow. Wow. But it flipped. I was so proud to be out and have this relationship that everybody had to know about it rather than just me being in that relationship. So I hope that tracks, but that was just my experience of what that, because in my divorce you wanna talk about imposter syndrome, an experience that divorce created an incredible conversation around imposter. Incredible. And so I find it interesting that. These days as we go through our own journeys that we are dealing with, obviously the things that happened in our childhood, but how they impact us as an adult. Yeah. Do you see a lot of that and is it something that, I don't wanna make light of it, but is it something that can then obviously be unpacked and worked through? Is it more difficult to. I don't know the correct term correct it or at least acknowledge it. And be with it now than it would be in your, let's say high school, college years. Is it more difficult when you're in your thirties, forties, fifties, or more? I. I think in some ways, yes, it, it becomes more pervasive, more ingrained. But what you spoke about just now, I think is a really critical point. Many people who are experiencing imposter syndrome or experience are navigating systems that are not designed for them, whether it's sexism, racism, heteronormativity. And so I think it's really important to validate not just the internal experience, but also the external context in which imposter experience emerges. But yeah, I think the longer you're enduring being in systems not designed for you and questioning and having these comparative experiences that are misaligned in some ways it is more challenging to unpack. In some ways it's just a perpetuation of those early experiences of shame and fraudulence. So it really just depends and I would assume some never unpack it, never identify it, unfortunately, never look at it true. Yeah. Unfortunately. Very true. What would be an example of the system that you said is designed that you are experiencing? What is that, say a little bit more about that. For the person who may not know that terminology. Just and I'll speak from a personal standpoint. Growing up in the heteronormative world, watching television shows and seeing. Characters relationships that are exclusively heterosexual. Seeing a gay figure on television who's a parody of themselves, who's mocked, who's the silly flamboyant, gay one who's a cartoon version. Of a gay person. And not to discredit someone who's, incredibly flamboyant, but when that's the singular experience that you have, it becomes very difficult to identify with. It's interesting because I think of will and Grace in that kind context where you had Jack both sides. You had Jack, but you also had Will. And that was, as I look at it now, was a really smart move for them to portray this kind of spectrum of not only these two gay male characters, but also the allies and the people that were in their lives. It was really, I think, really well done. I it was. I agree with you. I think I remember growing up just striving for that. Ident not the identity but the representation. We just didn't have it, in my day we found it in JC Penny catalogs. Correct. That's all we had. JC penny catalogs, that was it. Or being in love with the guy from chips, those kind of. Moments that you could identify, even though that character was not part of the L-G-B-T-Q community. But I remember right at least not openly. At least not openly, correct. But I can remember those moments of seeing that representation and almost feeling a little bit of disappointment and anger that we didn't have that growing up because would have that been an opportunity for us to feel. And then at the same time, I say this from my own experiences that. I was bullied also, I don't know to the extent in, in, in a comparison sense to anyone else, but I think I. Carried a lot of that with me throughout my life until I did the work to obviously identify it. But I remember when I first saw those moments of these characters on television, I had a sigh of relief for the future. It wasn't necessarily for me, but it was for our future generations of, yeah. Kids that will come up and be able to, be themselves. And again, in addition to other marginalized communities. This conversation is not exclusive and solely to the L-G-B-T-Q community. No, I wanna preface that. Anyone who is marginalized, anybody can have this kind of imposter experience. But I think it's important just'cause it's the community that you and I both belong to. Yes. To have that conversation. But what's interesting, getting back on track on the comparison route. I find may not get a lot of brownie points for this, but I find that the L-G-B-T-Q community, especially within the gay, gay male community, I. Is incredibly competitive and there is a tremendous amount of comparison that to this day just rocks me to my core. Yes. And what it does to the community, not only internally, but also externally and how it's portrayed. What are your thoughts on that? Do you have any kind of guidance and insight into that? Look, I couldn't agree with you more, and I think in certain ways there's no. Space where heteronormativity is more pervasive than within the gay community. Men who are straight acting tend to be prized, prioritized, valued, even within the gay community, compared to men who are more effeminate. And it it's a lot. And the competition, the claws out mentality. I hear routinely from gay men that the place where they feel least themselves and least comfortable in their own skin are in lgbtq plus spaces. Yes. Yes. Which is. For us, duh. But for, listeners and people who may not understand it's a phenomenon that's difficult to fully capture. I think a lot of the competition stems from the fact that for so many of us, we do grow up in these insular worlds and. Experience a lack of representation, a lack of community. And so there's this terminal uniqueness that kind of develops from an early age. And as painful as that is, it also becomes forged with our identity. And so when we're in spaces where we see other people acting like us, who are similar to us in whatever ways, in certain senses, that can be really threatening. And scary, and it's wait a second. I am the only unique one on the block here. So I think that there's that piece and it's a difficult phenomenon to unpack. Honestly. Yeah. I think it's, I've seen it firsthand many times within our community, yes. Gay males, lesbian, transgendered by that whole acronym that we live in and we seemingly identify ourselves within, can sometimes be incredibly isolating. And I've had several conversations on this podcast as to why is that and what is the purpose and what would life be like if we didn't have that? And I. Tried very hard when I created a local L-G-B-T-Q-A networking organization, and I said, I will not launch this unless we have representation from every letter of the acronym. Yeah. And it was fascinating to me. And there was comments that, again, whole other podcast episode, but there were comments like, we've never had a seat at your table. I'm like, who's your? And they're like, gay, white males. And I said, here's the thing, you're no longer gonna need to sit at my table. Our table, let's build a table together. And what was so powerful about that was it created a sense of community that I've yet to see exist and it's still going on. I've recently stepped down and passed the torch to my team to take it to another level, but I'm still so excited that I see that because I think it's the one thing moving to a new city after my divorce, trying to make friends, trying to find my tribe when my tribe is very diverse and very all encompassing has been challenging at best. How special though, to have? Diversity I have to. I've lived in very, L-G-B-T-Q oriented communities. And sometimes I find it a little stifling. I need some, lA's a big enough place. You can go off and you can find San Diego. Same thing. We can go off and find our space. Other cities not so much, but I think it's something that I'm hoping that as we're going through this incredibly tumultuous time right now, when our community is under attack, when we are. Struggling to keep our rights and to protect our brothers and sisters within our community. Our allies are more important now than ever. I think finding this sense of self and this sense of self-confidence and self-worth, and self-compassion too. Self-compassion. Thank you. That word was Yeah. Swimming around in my brain. Yes. It's so important to find that now, and as we kind of gear in towards bringing this conversation around,'cause I think you and I could talk for hours and hours about this. Definitely. What are some ways that people can find support? If they struggle with this concept of imposter experience or identity. Or syndrome? The first, yeah, the first and foremost is I would say talk about it, with trusted friends, with trusted colleagues, with trusted clergy, religious figures, if that's something that one is open to. The second is, it may make sense to chat about this with a trained licensed therapist. One of the best free resources is. Psychology today.com where you can actually, and I have no affiliation with psychology today.com, but where you can type it, excuse me, your area your insurance provider, you can even search by. By gender, you can search by sexual orientation. You can really break down who you're looking for and find a clinician who you really feel comfortable and safe with. Let's normalize going to therapy. And talking about this in the therapeutic space, I think there's so much value that can stem from that. Oh, 100%. I'm a huge proponent. I sought out a therapist to deal with my divorce many years after it happened. There was a few life circumstances in the way like covid and of course various other things that kept me from that. But it truly was such an amazing opportunity to sit with someone and to talk freely. My friends are amazing. Yes. But they're too close to the situation. They're way too close to what happened and so to. Yeah, you need objectivity, but you also need somebody who is, I feel trained to walk you through the process of grief, of loss, of all of those things, of anger and in a way that allows you to really be vulnerable to deal with the root core of the conversation. Yes. And I have friends who say I can do that through my meditation. Listen, I'm all for meditation as well. But having a conversation with yourself is called the monologue. And I know for me. Personally, that wasn't working to get myself out. It's not enough. Not enough. No. We're gonna go ahead and put a link to your site on our social media. I encourage people to check out you and to come to a place where if they need help to reach out. I know you offer a consultation. Yes. And I think it's important to have a first conversation with someone to see if it's something that you would like to do. I have. Two final questions as we are Sure. Looking at time to wrap this up. What's next for Dr. Josh? Great question. I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, but I, if I say it out loud, it becomes real. I genuinely feel like deep down there's a book in me somewhere. And I've contemplated writing and, I, I love to write, but. I would say within the next couple of years, perhaps your bookshelf may be adored with my book. I really think that may be a next chapter for me professionally. On a personal level, it's, I. Keeping up with my two young kids, my two boys, and staying active. I have a really busy practice, which I love so much and I'm so grateful for. So just staying rooted in today with an eye to a. Future authorship perhaps of a book. Love it. I will be the first person in line to buy that book, I think. Thank you. It could be amazing. I've really enjoyed our time together. I've enjoyed meeting you. I am, me too. I'm grateful to you Josh. And I say this a lot, but I mean it from the bottom of my heart. The world is a better place with you in it, and I hope Thank you that you will come back another time. There's much to talk about. I would love it. You're always welcome. I have a feeling you could be a resident guest. It would be an honor. I have one last question for you. Sure. And that is before we say goodbye, if you could go back to that very young, Josh and tell him about his life today. What would you tell him? Wow, I just got the chills. I would say. The first thing that comes to mind is it gets better, but really what it is it gets bigger, it, it gets bigger. The perspective that I had was so small, it was so myopic. I didn't know how fast the world was, but. The myriad of experiences just get bigger. The people that, that I will meet will just become, more vast in nature and it's not always going to be this way, I needed to hear that. Again, thank you for being here. Thank you for everything that you do. Thanks for making a difference in the lives of people. You too, Eric. And we'll talk soon. Sounds great to me. Thanks for being here. Alright, everyone, thank you again for joining us on today's episode. I hope our conversation resonated with you like it did me, and I cannot wait to sit down with you all again next week. Remember to subscribe to the Just Do You Podcast on your favorite platform so you can make sure not to miss a new episode, which drop every Thursday. If you like what you hear, you can easily share the podcast and episode. Directly with your friends and if you would rate us and leave us a review, we'd love to hear from you. You can also follow us on Instagram at Just Do You Pod as you go out into the world today. Remember to just do you. Alright, talk next week.