S1E40 Don Pietranczyk - Walking the Runway to Diversity, Equity & Inclusion

Join me this week as I sit down with Don Pietranczyk, a visionary leader in merging innovation, education, and inclusivity with over 25 years in the Fashion Industry. As the creative force behind bespoke onsite experiences and educational programming for MAGIC, Don leverages his extensive industry expertise, educational certifications, and fashion insight to craft transformative experiences for diverse audiences within the fashion world.

In addition to his professional contributions, Don is the U.S. lead for Informa’s LGBTQIA+ colleague network, Rainbow, and plays a pivotal role in Informa Markets’ sustainability initiatives. As a founding member of Informa Markets Fashion for Change, he champions allyship, diversity, and equality in fashion.

During our time together, Don shares his touching journey in finding his true authenticity and living a life dedicated to making a difference in the world around him.  Don's story is one many of us can relate to and I am so grateful that he joined me for this candid conversation.  I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

You can follow Don on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/don-pietranczyk/

To learn more about DE&I, visit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/juliekratz/2024/11/20/despite-dei-pushback-new-report-shows-companies-stay-committed-to-dei/

Thank you for joining us and we can't wait to welcome you back again next week! New episodes drop every Thursday and can be found wherever you find your favorite podcasts!  

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Want to learn more about our host, Eric Nicoll?  Visit:  https://ericnicoll.com

Transcript

0:05

Hello, everyone. Welcome to the JustDoYou podcast. My name is Eric Nicoll and I'm your host. If you are a first time listener, welcome to the conversation. And if you're a regular, I'm honored that you've decided to join me for another episode. The JustDoYou podcast is centered around a network of conversations, which are meant to connect us, to inspire https: otter. ai And who knows? We might even learn a little something new that ultimately allows us to live in the sweet spot that I like to call the just you, you space it being. Each week I have the privilege of sitting down for unscripted conversations with friends, family, colleagues, community leaders, and influencers that all share their own personal journeys. I hope that you enjoy our time together as much as I have. We are certainly gonna laugh, and yes, we might even cry a little, but in the end, we're gonna know that we're not alone during our life's journey. So, are you ready? Great, let's do this. Welcome to The Conversation. All right, everyone. Welcome to today's episode. I am really excited about my guest today. We have been friends and former colleagues for many, many years, and we've recently reconnected through LinkedIn but I'm excited to introduce everyone to Don Pietranczyk. Hi, Don. Hello, Eric. It's so nice to see you and hear you and be reconnected. Oh, I feel exactly the same. Thank you so much for coming on today. I loved our conversation. I think it was last week. It seems like it was just yesterday, but I loved reconnecting with you after all this time. It's been a lot of movement in both of our lives over the past couple of years. And it was really wonderful to sit down and, and chat with you, especially during this difficult. Transition in time we're all in post election and I was really just inspired to sit down and hear your journey of late. And so I'm again, just super grateful that you've decided to come on today. I'm going to read a little bit of your bio just to introduce you to our listeners. And then I want to Launch right into the conversation and just chat. Is that okay with you? Right on. Let's do it. Cool. Cool. Well, it's quite the bio I forgot how accomplished you are and how amazing you are But you have a fashion career that spans more than 25 years And what I loved about the bio is it said that you bring advanced ideas and education to life. The mastermind behind bespoke on site experiences and educational programming at Magic, which for those of our listeners who don't know is, I believe it's one of the largest fashion conventions, correct? Yeah. And you utilize your deep industry connections, education certifications, and fashion acumen. Love that to create powerhouse experiences that cater to all levels of the fashion portfolio. The thing that I also loved and what we talked a little bit on our intake call was that you lead your company's LGBTQIA. Run network. It's called rainbow, is that correct? Yes. We're going to talk about that. And you also are, the lead of their sustainability efforts. What I think is really great is you also, from what I was reading Are the founding member of what's called informal markets fashion for change, which works to foster allyship and inclusion and equality within the fashion community through some programs that you've created. One of the things that I think is really interesting these days is that DEI has come up quite a bit in conversation and many companies have been ditching their DEI programs. And I want to talk about that as we move through this conversation, because you have a really. How do I want to say this, a, a very concrete stance on the importance of DEI. I'll accept that take on it. Okay, good. So what I'd like to do before we talk about DEI, we also talked about aging and redefining that as we get older in our lives and our careers, I'd love to go back a little bit and just have you introduce our listeners to Yung Dong. Where were you born? What that life was like and what started this journey that you've been on. I won't age us at the moment, but all of these years. Oh my, oh my. I. I knew Loaded question. I know, I knew you said I'm gonna, I we blush at this'cause it just goes back. I knew you said we might talk about, you know, growing up and, and stuff, but when you hear a question like that. And you are actively listening and actively about to participate. It hits you in a different way than when you read it maybe, or when you hear it in passing. All right. So anyway so I was born in the Midwest. I was born in a South Suburb of Chicago and I grew up in a very working class, blue collar, conservative, Catholic, mostly Polish city. And because of that, I did not have a lot of exposure to a lot of things outside of, of those descriptions. And which as a child, we only know what we know. So it seemed fine, but yet at the same time, I, there was a, an interest that was Kind of pecking at me undefined. And I didn't know what it was, but it was fine. I figured I'd figure it out. And I went to a private Catholic school growing up, therefore a uniform every day, therefore never having to worry about what we had to wear. Which seems to be fine with exception of when there were. or whatever, fill in the blanks. It was always, it always excited me. What am I going to wear? What should I wear? It was always what to wear even back then. And I think I either have my mother to thank or to blame for it because she she always presents herself. In a way, that's, that's just lovely and flawless. And I think it has to do with the year the Chinese year we were born. We were both, both born under the same Chinese sun. And I remember when I was in Hawaii once there was a garden with all of the, Chinese years. And the one, and I can't remember which one it is. That's attributed to my year and her year. It's, it said something like, you will. never at a loss for what to wear or will always present better than or more than or something. It was something about style and, and outfits. And it was like, Oh my God. So right. Thank you. Year of the fill in the blank. So anyway that's talking to my fashion acumen and then also my fashion acumen being voted best dressed in my high school class which was tough because it was a bunch of straight guys from. The South suburbs of Chicago, like what are they really going to be wearing? Like all I really had to do was make sure it wasn't ripped or dirty and I could win. That said, there were some pretty great outfits. But. Yeah, young Don left private school and then went to a public high school, which was the beginning. There were two beginnings. If this makes sense, it was the beginning of the end. And it was also the beginning of the beginning. And I had no idea it was so sheltered. And this seemed at first, it seemed like a combination of a prison and like, Adults dressed as students. They just looked so old and so different than me, although they were students, but I was, I was so easy. Like what a target I, she came in all dressed, ready to go iron, like hair, the whole thing. Also in my eighth grade class, I was voted boy, most likely to worry about his hair. So, I mean, these writing was on the wall right from the beginning. It was. It was destiny. I, I just, whatever it was. So, so then it was drama club and high school, it was student council and high school, and it was just a desire to, you know, participate and get involved. And that part plays a role, which I didn't know would play in my future. So all during high school and college, my focus was English teacher. Like I never strayed from that. I always had a desire. I'm going to be an English teacher certified six. Through 12th grade English literature went on to teach for a semester and then concluded that I don't want to do this. So it's really hard for anybody at any point in their life to be focused on something and then get to that something and achieve it and then not be surprised. Cause I certainly wasn't surprised at what was going on. I guess what I might've been surprised. At was my response to it. Yes. It's exactly how everyone said and how I expected it to be. But when I, what I'm feeling is not what I expected to feel. There was some sort of like and I think I've mentioned this last time. It was, it was my bell from beauty and the beast moment. There must be more than this provincial life. And I thought like I needed to expand. So I, I went into a friend of mine was working at a company and said, I can probably get you into an entry level position. And the it was very, it was customer service, answering phones, but the beauty of that experience was that. Everyone in, in our department was a liaison to different parts of the company and the business so that we can come back and report. Cause we, we were the center, we were the call center. So we needed to know about finance. We needed to know about editorial. We needed to know about cetera. And I was assigned the conference and events. Team just by like, Oh, the person who was doing it left. And now you're in that person's chairs and therefore you will do it. It had nothing to do with, we looked at your resume. We think you're amazing. No, she's out. You're in God bless. And then I went to that first meeting and I thought this. Wait a minute. First of all, this is a full time career. Like it's, you get paid for it. And second of all, I'm like, this is why this is student council. This is planning the homecoming dance. This in a corporate kind of way, of course, this is planning, you know, our days, events, et cetera, at our, at our work, at our student council workshop. So that's why. You know, kind of doing that work in high school was serendipitous. I had no idea that it was going to, you know, inform my future and 30 years later, here I am. Yeah. Okay. So I have two questions because you dropped the bombs. I have two questions. So only child or siblings? Siblings sister, brother, sister, so second, okay, from the top. And then the word with the hair, I just have to see a photo. You're going to have to send me something because I'm going to have to see this. What was that? Being one of four growing up in this very conservative, as you said, community and, and environment. Obviously being the creative and being the fashionista of that time, if you will, for lack of a better term. What was that experience like for you in school? Was it easy? You said, you mentioned the word target. I mean, were you bullied? What was that conversation back then? Yeah, bullied for sure. It started in like seventh or eighth grade, even at the end of the grade school years, I, you know, once everybody starts to turn, like that's when everybody, you know, starts to do that thing. And I became a target and high school was not easy and Created a lot of fear and elements of worry that actually I was just speaking with a friend about last night that still, you know, kind of hang in the background and, you know, we owe it to ourselves as adults to continue to think through and work through those times so that they don't, you know, continue to, to pull us down. But Yeah, it was hard. And in the family, it was also hard because my brother is 18 months younger than I am. So we're pretty close in age. We shared a room and he was, he couldn't be more opposite of me and literally celebrated athlete. In grade school and high school. And I was literally not. And so there, there, it just, it wasn't easy. I never wanted to be that. So I never, you can't, I can't say there was envy there, but there was, there's certainly, you know, a disconnect between, you know, attention and focus and not. And then. You know, I would say this to anyone who, and maybe anyone, a lot of people who are in the community, the LGBTQI plus community, might kind of feel or understand is even if something isn't being done to you proactively or, or actively at all, when nothing is done, It's the same, same, maybe even more hurtful. So it's not like my parents were also picking on me as a dark, but it's, they weren't doing anything to, to kind of even things out. So the absence of that is just as, as hurtful as the presence of something negative. Sure. And we've said this, Yeah, we've said this quite often on the podcast and the reason I asked the question and take us back to the beginning is because I believe we all are shaped by those experiences and by our Environment and I also am very clear and very confident that we don't always equipped our parents Not our personal parents, but parents in general with the tools needed to know how to navigate a child who may be incredibly creative or a child who is incredibly into sports and, and especially in this machismo male driven conversation that we're in those of us who were in band or who in theater or who liked fashion or who I'm going to pick on you on this hair thing because you do have the best hair. Ever, but in today's world, we're having conversations in how to deal with, not only are you more creative, are you less athletically inclined, we're dealing with gender conversations. We're dealing with a host of conversations on raising a child in this day and age and not equipping parents with the tools that they need. So I never really. Want to fault a parent or a teacher. We have the same conversations about teachers. You know, we teach them how to teach English or we teach them how to teach science. We teach them how to coach football, but we don't teach them how to deal with that one particular child or several children who were in your classroom. My mom didn't really know what to do with me when I came out to handle that with all this and process. And, and, and I had it where she was a teacher at the school that I went to. And so there was years and years and years, not to her fault, but years of hiding who I was because I didn't want her to find out. So it was elementary school and high school where I was very much trying to not be found out. And it made it very difficult because I was picked on as well. And so I. hid in that proverbial closet for many, many years. But when I came out to my mom, the first year was rough, but I give her so much credit because she took the time to understand where I was coming from and took the time to get educated and took the time to meet my friends and to meet the community. And I praise on her a lot because she's also the teacher who brought the gay student Alliance GSA brought that to our high school. And so I give her a lot of credit. So I, I can imagine growing up Midwest, conservative, Catholic background for children, parents, it was tough. It was difficult. So obviously there was, and I asked this question, a lot of guests that, that share similar stories. And I will tell you, you are not alone. I would say probably 99 percent of the guests that I have had on this podcast who share the story, had the same journey of some sort. And it always, ends up that there was a conversation inside of them that was bigger than the circumstances in which they were struggling in, meaning the bullying was definitely hard and difficult, but there was a conversation inside of them or a foresight into something much bigger than them was able to pull them through that. Did you sense that at that age and going through that, or were you in survival mode just to get to the other side to move, to be able to move on? There was a few things happening. Perhaps there was something that I didn't know or couldn't define. Definitely survival mode. But one thing that I, that always I have found quizzical about my own self was despite having such a horrific somewhat torturous high school experience, I did not. Not want to go. I always wanted to go. I always wanted to be in the mix. I always wanted to participate. I always just. Thought I don't care. I this is what I want to do. So I'm just gonna do it I guess I'll take the consequences which will be like bullying or catcalling or whatever But I'll still be doing what I want to do. I'll still be at the Friday night game Even though I can even still see it in my mind's eye needing to walk into the gym past the stands where the students sat, but then past the group of hecklers, people that I knew were going to make fun of me in order to get to the group that I ultimately was meeting. And then there's safety once you land with exception of maybe throughout the, you know, still kind of keeping that eye on what could potentially happen at any But the point is, is that I, I wasn't deterred, but I don't know why I wasn't deterred just that I wasn't. I mean, I remember senior year after first semester, second semester, new, new classes and new kind of cadence and therefore new, new hallway choreography going from this room to this room, which route are you going to take? And you know, depending on who's, who has what class next, potentially a whole new set of. People to come upon. And that first week of the new semester, I remember these two, I can't next year is my 40th year in 25 is a 40 year of high school reunion. And if these two numb nuts even show up, it'll be, I don't even know. Anyway, there are two of a, of a group of people. And every day I walked by and it was, it was just horrific. And. I thought, you know, I can like, just still get to where I need to go. I'll just go this way and around on the second time I did that. I'm like, F this. No, no, I am not changing my route for these two. And as the semester went on, it just kind of dissipated and it kind of fell away. And it was the first example for me to learn and kind of use as a building block that I'm not going around the problem. I'm going through it. It's not a new concept, but when you were, you know, 17 and afraid, For your life or what you feel is afraid for your life. And in this kind of a scenario, it was a new concept and I'm great. I don't know. No one told me to do it. No, I didn't know of that idea about going through it rather than around it. I just, there was something in me that was just saying, you just, this feels right. And that other way feels wrong. So I did it. I will. I'm so excited for your reunion because I had an opportunity. I unfortunately couldn't go to my 40, which was this year, but I did go to several of the first series of reunions and I had a couple hecklers and that's a nice way of putting it for them in my high school experience. And I remember sitting in my car, terrified. I think it was our 20 to go into this party still as an adult. I was like, you know, it took me right back to the quad and I remember walking in and one of them in particular walked right up to me. I started to panic, walked right up to me and said, how is it possible that after all of these years, you still look like you do then you did, you know, senior year. And I don't know where it came from, but it just kind of came out. And I said, I don't have two ex wives, five children and palimony and child support payments. So I said, you know, that has obviously aged you as did your Complete trauma that you caused and wreaked havoc. And I've often thought about this as I'm having conversations and you've brought it up for me again today. I really believe in my heart of hearts as difficult as it was for us in school to be teased and to be taunted and to have to find paths and corridors. I happened to hide out in someone's office quite often and no, it wasn't my mother's. It was another administrator. But I often wonder, and based off of that conversation I had with this person from my high school, was it easy for them as well or wasn't it? And I often think that it's not. We think that it was, that they had this brilliant life and they were the college jock and they had all the cute girls and this, that, and the other, but I can't imagine. We know what their home life was like and imagine what the pressures were. So. That's unfortunate. And it's part of, it's part of life these days, though. I'm sounding like my grandmother. I couldn't imagine raising a child in this day and age with all the social media and the comparisons and all of that would just be too much. So going back to you as we digress so you are, you're finishing school and you head off to college. Did you, because we met under the auspices of the event industry, which we'll talk about, but did you know in high school and that you would potentially end up in fashion? No, no. I mean, I, in college, I continued my studies with education and English and literature. And I also did a lot of dancing in college. I, I feel like I have enough hours for an undeclared minor and dance, which was a blessing to me. It was the biggest gift in my life that I still do today. And so, no, but there was all, and, you know during college, I worked in retail. So I was surrounded by clothes and happy to be surrounded by clothes and in that kind of state of affairs. And the woman who ran the men's department asked me to go to the merchandise mart in Chicago to help her look for product for next season, what we should consider bringing in, and. At that moment, I thought I didn't make the connection between this could be a career or not, because I was looking at it like I'm in college and working a part time job in a store. That's not a career. That's a part time job in a store. Like it didn't, It didn't equate to a career to me, which is unfortunate because I could have really kind of dug my heels. And I wasn't wearing heels at that point yet, but I could have dug my feet in into fashion at that early time. But there'd always been an element of, of that with me and just just a way to present. has always been top of mind. So for example, I, even if we weren't doing this today, I would still have a, an ironed shirt on and an ironed sweater that I made sure just because I like the way it feels and who knows who's going to call and you never know when you're going to walk out and all of this. But. It doesn't at all just feed into the person and the kind of presentation. Oh, my grandmother was the epitome of that. My mom's mom. We used to tease that she would garden in her tracksuit, but wear Ferragamo's and her diamond earrings. She was always this so well put together. She always looked amazing. And even to go to the market, this woman dressed impeccably and was always put together. And I maybe a strange transition, but I remember the first time really meeting you. We were obviously younger then, but probably the most poised is the wrong word. But You had this eloquence about you and you had this style about you, which you still have both obviously many, many years later, but it was rare for somebody in that kind of demographic to be of that. Well, thank you for saying that. I remember the two things I was wearing that at that conference. And I think it was Philadelphia MPI. One, what I remember, I remember so vividly, it was a linen, white linen button down shirt with cat with a Brown light Brown linen pant to match, and then that was during the day. And then in the evening or the next day, I had on a Brown cotton suit from banana republic with a white shirt, no socks and black loafers. And it was, it was when brown was the color, though, obviously she was all in brown. And I just. That's how much I love clothes. That's how much I love wearing clothes. But as we're talking about this, and I had never put these, these two ideas together, I swear until this moment is the idea and as I thought of it, as you mentioned, your story of your grandmother, is it the idea for me? Of a sense of control, especially in those years when I felt as though I had no control, i. e., and and my own love of fashion, but I think there was a, there's a connection there as to why, another reason why I like it. It is not the reason, certainly not the only reason, but I think it contributes to. Giving me a sense of, also a sense of what is that called? Discipline. Yeah. There's that. That's also why, you know, 40 years after taking my first ballet class, I'm still, still taking class because there's a discipline at all to do it. But then once you're inside the class, there is that discipline inside there and structure. So I think structure has something to do with it too. Yeah, I think you need to visit many, many people who allowed the pandemic to completely derail their desire to be in iron shirts and sweaters and look presentable. I think that year and a half we spent locked up in our homes did us in completely. And. Forever. I don't know that we'll ever get it back. I love clothes as well. I wish I had the closet of some of my counterparts, but being tall and I know it's not always true, but being tall is difficult sometimes to find the right fit clothes. But anyway, I, You have your own burdens to bear up. I have my own burdens to bear. So true for those listening, Don and I are not exactly the same height. We'll just leave it there. Yes. But it really has, and especially living at the beach coastal community. It's super relaxed. It's very casual. Living in Palm Springs was even more casual. It was George and a polo shirt at every turn. Yeah, but I found that since the pandemic, it's really people have really struggled to kind of get back into this method of dressing for work. There are some companies now that allow people to wear athletic wear, which I think is completely not acceptable to wear. Your, maybe it's the, I think what people, there's so many things there. There's one thing I think what is a challenge is that some people conflate, you know comfort with this type, a type of look, I know that I am comfortable when I wear sweats or running shorts and a t shirt, however, comma, you can still be comfortable. You just find product. In that fabric that is in a different structure or construct. So for example, when I travel, I always wear a black suit, but it is a stretchy black suit mango, by the way, mango for men. Amazing pricing and amazing. It's, it's like a theory concept, but at, at at a more affordable price, but it. People are like, why are you always so dressed up when you travel? I said, this is basically a running suit, but it has a lapel and buttons. And you know, look, I could do this, my, the legs, it's so completely comfortable and whether it's paired with a black t shirt, a white t shirt on the way out and a black t shirt on the way back structure, discipline, costume, whatever have you. But I want to tell you, it makes all the difference when you are at the airport and when you are on the flight. How you treat it. A hundred percent. I want to sit in an airport with you and a cup of coffee cookie, and we could just sit in critique people. If I see one more person in pajamas and their slippers, hearing a pillow, lying, carrying a pillow flying, I'm going to cry. It's it's there's, there's an entire like season we can do on that topic alone. It's, it's challenging, but there was something else you were saying. I can't even remember. There was, there's just so much packed into our conversation that that's just so good about it, but we were going through college and then we're going into fashion and it's just it's just of interest to me. In fact, I went to the world premiere of the Tom Brown. documentary that will soon be on Hulu, I think. And it was at a film festival here in New York. And I just, I love his look and his style. It's truly aspirational from a price point, for me at least. But, you know he was there and he did a, he did a talk back afterwards. And it was just to be in the midst of that That kind of community lovers and those who appreciate fashion. The film itself was amazing. It's the story of a creative he's from the Midwest. He had a, he, he had a a sport upbringing. He was a swimmer for Notre Dame. And, and then he goes into this and then becomes iconic in the industry and in the world. Like you see something, you're like, that's Tom Brown, not Adidas, not Adidas. They have three stripes. He has four stripes. It has been confirmed in the courts of law. He can still have his four stripes. I have a feeling we could do many, many podcast episodes on fashion, many podcast episodes. I do don't want to want to parlay this into the conversation. I think that we had also on the phone the other day. And I'm curious, I don't necessarily know that a lot of people really understand DEI, where it came from, why it's here, why it's important. And it really is, I think, very timely right now to Talk a little bit about that if you don't mind switching gears just a little bit. What had you have the conversation to start this and why was it important to you? I mean, first of all, you're in the fashion industry. So there is an LGBTQIA plus conversation about it anyway. But so why was that important for you? But first I'll say you'd be surprised how many straight men are in the fashion industry. So like when I came into it, like fully proper as a full time job, like over a decade ago I was like we're all the gays. Like, what are you guys doing here? Aren't you supposed to be in another industry? Like this should be women and gays, but it's not, it's everything, which fine. But I thought. Wow. Okay. So I, I think that the, my work in DE& I is absolutely connected to just my own sense of pride and my own passion about equity at all. And actually that, that is what I'm reminded of what I wanted to say earlier when talking about teaching parents how to parent and teaching teachers how to teach. One of the main reasons I wanted to be a teacher was because I wanted to be that teacher in the classroom that had an eye. On me as the student, young me, I wanted to be. And, and during that time, believe me, none of that crap went down. She's her eyes were, what are you doing? What are you saying? What's like, I, my eyes were on those boys and those girls sometimes too, that were, were in those clicks and being mean. So That was the good work that I wanted to do, and I think everyone benefited from it. I like to think, I like to think so because I felt like the, the tone of the room changed as the semester went on. Okay. So that aside. So, but, and then when I came out officially to the world, like, I think a lot of people's coming out, not everyone, because some people just are out like that. I had the coming out to myself, and then I had the coming out to my close circle of friends. And then I had the coming out to my family and then usually during that out to myself out to my close circle of friends, then you are out to your, your world. And I was working at a company that was absolutely receptive to, to the the community. And I didn't have any wonders, worries, or et cetera, about bringing my authentic self to the office. And this was in the nineties in Chicago, in a financial information company. Usually defined as traditional and that I was able to have that as a baseline for a career and begin to build from there. Really it wasn't lost on me. So it was the, it was that sense of being treated equally that just kind of echoed and was underscored on a regular basis. So, When I was coming during that time, I marched in the gay pride parade in, well, actually I danced in the gay pride parade in Chicago a few times. And then when I went to then when I moved to LA, I was a part of a adult cheer group, which cheered for play, which cheered for HIV collected for HIV AIDS and awareness. And that connects to, first of all, getting back to high school for a minute. Hey, hating, hating being made fun of not wanting to. Not go also voted most school spirited. So there that just read that, that tracks. And then I was a cheerleader in college and then I was an adult cheerleader. It's like, what is wrong with me? I say, I maybe talk to my therapist about this next week and he'll be like, are you overcompensating? But I feel like when people compensate, it's a chore and this feels absolutely natural to me. So anyway. So then there was supporting in that very public space there in a volunteer way. And then when I joined the group the fashion group there we got acquired by a company that had a, an LGBTQIA plus group already like established, and I thought, Oh my God, how this is amazing. Like, obviously I'm going to get involved. And the first meeting I went to, I said, okay, so what does this group do? And. They said, well, I don't know. We just kind of just sort of, we talk, I'm like, all right. They didn't know. And I didn't know. Oh, I certainly didn't go in there. I was, listen, I don't need to lead. I am happy to be in the group unless or until I don't trust the leader. Then it's like, all right, move out of the way. I'm going to just help out a little. So then I said, what do we, does the group do anything for pride? Oh no, not really. Well, we should probably march in pride. Do you think the company would support that? I don't know. We should ask. I'm like, who would you ask? They're like, I don't know. I'm like, hold on. So actually four months later, we marched in pride for the first time in LA. And then we marched again. Then I moved to New York and I said, Oh, does this office march in pride? They're like, no. And I'm like, so we marched in pride two years in a row in New York. There's just being a part of the community. There's such an, I, I. I'm aware of the under represented groups. It doesn't just have to be the gay group. It's like people of color, people with varying abilities, et cetera. So that it's, it's always, it's always been important to me just from friends, from being in meetings, being in rooms, like, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? Why, why it doesn't make sense. So there's a real sense of like. Fairness also that comes into play. And so then when we were acquired again by the group that now owns us, we had this. rainbow group going, they were like, we want to have a rainbow group. And I'm like, all right, so we're going to make a giant rainbow group. And that was in 18 or 19. So the rainbow group was already established. And then we had our summer of unrest in 2020, when there was a lot of focus on the black community. And And that's when people internally recognize we had already been recognized, like people knew there was a rainbow group, et cetera. People thought or asked, well, why isn't there, why isn't there like a black black colleague run network? I said, I don't know why. Why isn't there? Well, how did you guys get one? We just made it. So how do you make it? I'm like, okay, here's what you do. You do this, this, and this, and this. And then all of a sudden you're one, you are one. And then they were one and now they are one. And then other people would say, Hey, why don't we have a group? I'm like, I don't know. Why don't we? Figure you just build it. No one said Don, here is a group. If you want a group, if you need a group, if you feel there's a, there's a room for a group to contribute and benefit the colleagues and the business and maybe even, you know, The industry itself, that's, that's the reasons why I, I did it. And you mentioned informal markets, fashion for change during the summer of 20 I was like, we were talking about what can we do and as a publicly traded company, as a lot of people in those scenarios a lot of companies and their boards of directors are you Resistant to taking true big political stands, or I, I don't necessarily agree with it because it's for whatever reasons, but I understand it. So, okay, well, so then what can we do in a way to provide? Because what would we be? What do we wanna accomplish by taking a stand? Well, we want to show support. We want to give support. We wanna make a difference. We wanna participate in some way. So I'm one of the founding members of this group that created opportunity for black owned brands or black designers who are looking to come into the industry into have a B to a footprint at our B2B show to give them the space at no cost to them. And which is normally, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. Of course, like with a lot of minority groups, one of the barriers to entry is finance. So they've got, they have the designs, they have enough money to create the designs, but how do I get myself in front of people while the, the, the Easiest, quickest, best way to have a big impact is to be in a room with as many potential customers as possible. And that's a trade show. So. We started that with the men's group and then it moved into the women's group in Magic, and then it moved into the women's group in Coterie in New York. And it's been successful ever since 2020. And it was, you know, a contributing factor, I think, to the reason why I was recognized last year for my DE& I efforts in the company by TSNN. It was just, it was done on a This something needs to be done. And now we are. In a time or at a time when people are open to hearing what it is we're suggesting to do and open to taking the making the move in order to make it happen. So those of us who have been in Around the block a few times. No pendulum swing and know that and things that are offered have a lifespan and then they, they flame and then they Ember and then they flame and Ember. And so. I'm I know enough to know if, if I feel like we have the support, we're going to do as much as we can right now. And until the flame begins to, to turn into a number and back to what you were saying about D and I at all, we can look at trending information on, on LinkedIn and maybe just across, if you want to Google D and I. There's, there's conversations about companies who are adjusting their DEI program, their DEI stance. They're, work that they're interested in, in doing and the proclamations they've made over the past few years are now. Finding ways to be adjusted with, with, um, with explanation. We're going to change it to this because, and I'm not sure which I prefer more. We're going to change it and that's it. Or we're going to change it and I'm going to give you a song and dance. Like look over here. Don't look over there. I'm not sure which I prefer. And don't mean to interrupt, but this is a. Conversation that is under my skin a little bit is that, you know, there is obviously a great deal of ROI that comes with. A D and I affiliate group, I believe that 100 percent we see the data, we see the data and we see the benefit and outside of the data. You can see it live. It's to me. It's a very palpable thing. You can see it live within a company. You can see, people that are more joyful, happier, feeling connected. All we want is, and I say this all we, the collective we, that is the LGBT community, the people of color, those marginalized communities, black owned, women owned, et cetera, et cetera. We, all we want is to be recognized and acknowledged and celebrated and given the respect that we deserve. And for somebody who works on their own, I have my own company. Obviously, I don't have, lots of employees, but I can imagine that those D and I groups within a company and corporation are incredibly valuable. And I know that there is a misunderstanding that when someone says DE& I, especially it came up during the election but that it's an LGBTQ specific thing. It's not, and it's not at all. But when you look at who best benefits from that DE& I affiliation within a company, it's exactly the groups. of people that they are trying to silence and trying to push aside and push back. And so you said it much more corporate and nice and eloquent than I did. I just want to come out and say, I think it's BS because I do understand and see the benefits. I worry that The companies that are choosing to change with the excuse aren't necessarily being honest and being forth with, with why. And so I'm always looking at, and never used to, oddly enough, look at companies that Are out for change. I remember several companies. I think Nabisco was one that did an ad with two dads and their daughter. That was beautiful. I cried during it because it was so cool. And then I remember the backlash that it got. I remember other companies that started to roll out pride merch during pride season and the backlash that that got. And. All of those things that we can give reason to and clear cut examples of is heard on deaf ears, I suppose. And I wonder, Don, as we transition and we go through these next couple of years, fighting for the resilience of these groups and these opportunities to be seen, to be heard, to be celebrated, to be acknowledged, to be respected, that it's just. People are overwhelmed and over inundated with information, or is it that we just haven't educated enough to the public and to our people why it's so important to have DE& I across the board? Yeah, I think that there there's a, there are two solid reasons why in my opinion from what I've seen and observed and et cetera, two reasons why a company would decide to kind of renege on their D and I promises that they were so proudly stating internally and externally. One is dollars that are involved. It's a very basic business. Scenario, it costs me money to do X, Y, and Z. And if it's kind of not necessarily in fashion at the moment, I can save that money, especially in this in these times of unknown who knows what the financial scenarios are going to be. Few years. So people can be thinking ahead and saying, where can we cut that can be cut because we just need the bare minimums. Therefore it has already been decided that which we know as a bare minimum, which is my respect and safety. Is not your bare minimum company acts because you've said we're cutting out everything except the bare minimums and the DNI is on the second ring and that therefore it's cut. So then it's a it's a money thing. On the other hand, we have, unfortunately, and I've I've witnessed it still a group of of professional adults successful thinkers, doers, beers. That cannot wrap their minds, maybe even their hearts around the concept of DE& I or equity or what that means. And it's, it's not shade or a slam. It's just an observation and it's a, it's a, it's a report. This is what I am seeing. You, person X, cannot Understand or will not allow. It's that it's that gift. We see, you know, equality is not a pie. I get some and you get less. Everyone gets the same. But that that thought process is still alive and well in person. People usually our age or older, and those are still the people making the big decisions. And so when the D. N. I. Conversation comes up. That's the other reason why. It can then be used as an excuse. Like, oh, all the other companies are not doing it. Therefore, we're going to readjust to be in line with our contemporaries. When the real reason is, I don't, what does it mean? I don't know what transgender, what are pronouns? What does that mean? It's, really not that difficult, but it's an excuse to just kind of, you know, put their shoulders up and feign ignorance I don't even know what's worse. Like, are you truly not know because it's an easy concept and therefore you're unable to grasp an easy concept? Or are you lying to me, pretending you're Dumb which, and both are just as bad, I guess, same wrong, different letter, but because the results are the same, they get, they get to say, no, we're going to, we're going to readjust. So. The work in, in DNI is, is so important. And you mentioned earlier also sustainability. One of the things that our company is really, really focused on is sustainability, but the way, thankfully, the way we look at it is two prong. There's environmental and social. And so. Obviously the environmental sustainability is what is the default thought process, but the social aspect of sustainability is also something that our company pays attention to and underlines as important, especially in the fashion community. When we're looking at the places where people source and manufacture their products and what that life is like for those folks in those countries doing that work. That's. Social inequity that's a mark against your sustainability work. If you are working with a a manufacturer or a factory that is not paying a decent wage or treating their, their employees fairly or appropriately. So that's also work that I'm focusing on and Helping support. Because again, even though it's, it's really prevalent in, in fashion. And we, we heard the Kathy Lee Gifford story years ago, that made it known to the public when that came out. And, and I think at the time there was like, Oh my God, that's happens. But I still need that product, but Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, that plays right into your comment about are you lying to me about being or are you Yeah. Again, it all goes back to education where you, where you put a lot of your effort in the beginning of your career. I truly believe that there is so much information coming at us now with all of the channels. That it becomes overwhelming to many people, myself included sometimes, to really sit down and dig into what does it mean to D, E, and I. What are the benefits? What are the pros? What are the cons? Where did it come from? How long has it been around? To read about it. And what we do as a human race or as a community is we bandwagon jump. Someone says X, someone says Y. Many of the people jump on the X bandwagon. Many people jump on the Y bandwagon. And then we fight amongst each other. And we make comments on social media about what the other person said. But we're really not deeply educated in the root of what it is that we're fighting about. I call that bandwagon jumping. I believe that happens a lot, not just in DE& I, but in politics, everything else that happens everywhere. Yeah. And the same thing with the pronouns. You know, even within our own community, I've had conversations with people who have said they don't want to buy into the pronoun conversation. And I said, listen, let's take it a little step further. Let's get educated on the pronouns, why the pronouns are important, why it's important for someone to identify as he, him, or she, her, or they, them. Respect it. You don't have to necessarily understand it completely. I'm also of the, of the conversation that in order for me, and I struggle with it sometimes because we don't wear name badges that say, Hi, my name's Eric. I'm he, him, that we have to give all of us, the grace, everybody, Yeah, given the grace to learn a little. We not only need to give them the grace, but if we are going to be using pronouns, we need to be able to have the patience to educate the people and ask them to please use our pronouns. And here is why I'll just use it because it's this same thing with D and I, we can't say, here's. The group here is the opportunity now just do it. It needs to be educated. So I worry sometimes that this is all getting buried in this larger conversation within these companies and these brands that are pulling out from DE& I in that if if we could just take a step back and maybe Oh, I don't know, Google it, get some education, learn some things about DE& I, really get into it so that when we're making those decisions and we're having those conversations with people, that we are then able to do so in a manner to where we're making our own decisions. Two last questions, because I think you and I could talk forever, and I do hope that you'll come back and we can talk more because this has been a lot of fun. But I have two quick questions. Where do you see you going forward? What is Dawn's future look like? Well, that's a timely question. I had dinner with friends last night and they were, it was the first time I've seen them in person in a while, but certainly since the election. And there was, there was a lot of outreach and concern. I, and I was very sorry that I caused that during the days that followed, because I just kind of went inward and became incommunicado. And then. you know, everyone has their choreography that they follow in those times and mine is that and then, you know, kind of slowly creep out and then, you know, what, okay, now what is the plan? And so I am, I'm thinking, what is the plan? And what is the plan in general? And what is the plan specifically? And does it, Connect to my career? Or does it connect to my after hours volunteering in philanthropy? Or how do these roads converge? Who knows? I do know that I wrote an email to HRC just this morning, to the New York chapter to see how I can participate and volunteer. The, I had the place where we had dinner, my friend owns, and he was at the table and we were talking about this and he said, you know. If you're interested in, you know, becoming a council man or something like that. I know a lot of them in the neighborhood that I can introduce you to. And I'm like, so I Googled some of our councilmen in the neighborhood and yeah, I. I don't, I don't know if DFP is the new AOC, but I think that there is something that has to do at least at this moment. And I'm, I know myself enough to know that I will be conservative about the approach because. Once I make the decision, we're, we're in the decision. So we'll move forward with it. But work will continue with DE and I making things as equitable, not only in the company that I'm working, but also In the industry that I'm serving. And also coincidentally in following this call, I was asked to jump on a call with a, not a competitive company, but a company that also does trade shows. And they're looking to start their own colleague run networks. And a friend of mine works there and said, would you mind. Talking to our senior management about what goes on in your colleague run networks. And I said, I would absolutely not mind for someone who's interested in starting some in, in your company. So that's where, that's where it is. And then I'll just say that despite the fact that I said, I'm going to school to become an English teacher and I focus. And then I got there and I'm like, no, I'm not doing this. I do. There's no irony in the fact that my title. VP of experiences and education has the word education in it. And that I spend a lot of my time on education related work. Whether it's building programs for the company that I work on their shows or just internally making sure that people have as much of an understanding of X as possible. Well, I will say this. Before I ask you my last question this has been a delight and my brain is churning with a lot of things that you've talked about today. I do want you to come back at some point and let's delve a little deeper into the conversation we had when we were catching up about This transition into aging, right? You're going to hit your 40 year reunion. I just hit mine. I think that would be a really interesting conversation because there's many of us out there in our age group that are looking at what's next. We talked about that. So maybe that was a table of, I know let's do it. That there was a reason for my, my question about what's next for you, because it's a question that a lot of us are asking, but those of us that are in our fifties, I'll leave it there are having that conversation. So I'd love you to come back. My comment to you is again, thank you for your time today. And thank you for your insight as eloquent and as. Wonderful as I have always known you it's great to reconnect and I'm just so excited that there are people in this world like you that are out to make our workplaces more equitable, make the world more equitable and also forging ahead with some new territory and you are truly the epitome of this just do you space of being. I've been super impressed by you. And I want to say thank you for that. And thank you for being that for the community. So my last question, which I ask all my guests before we say goodbye, is if you could go back to that young Don, that elementary school, Don, what would you tell him about his life today? Oh my god, why am I emotional? I feel like I'm, I'm on the finale of RuPaul's Drag Race when he asked that question. I guess there's still, there's still emotion connected to that poor kid because he was, He was just so, how can you be alone in a family? How can you be alone in a crowd? You can, and it's, it's scary as a child, but it's a lot easier as an adult, but it's not the, it's not the road to take. So I would say I would say continue to be as fabulous as we all know you to be trust, trust your instincts for sure. I became aware of, of things that just didn't feel right for a long in my youth, and I just always. Responded or reacted based on that. And it has never, it has never done me wrong. So just continue to recognize those things. If it says stop or don't go stop and don't go. But if it says, I don't know, try it, try it. Should I didn't know what was going to happen when I left Chicago to move to LA? Tried it. I didn't know what was going to happen when I left LA to move to New York. Try it only the better for it. Well, and I would also add one thing is that I know that that. Little Dawn is very proud of the Dawn that you are today. So don't I, I, I did not cry through this episode. I'm super proud of myself. It's the one episode lately. I didn't, but I'm super grateful to you. Super proud of you and just loved our conversation. So thank you for taking the time today to share a little bit about your world. It means, it means a lot. Your, your words are so kind and I appreciate them. So thank you for thinking of me and I'm going to look forward to continued conversations. A hundred percent. All right. We'll talk to you soon. Okay. Bye. All right, everyone. Thank you again for joining us on today's episode. I hope our conversation resonated with you like it did me, and I cannot wait to sit down with you all again next week. Remember to subscribe to the Just You Podcast on your favorite platform so you can make sure not to miss a new episode, which drop every Thursday. If you like what you hear, you can easily share the podcast and episode Directly with your friends. And if you would rate us and leave us a review, we'd love to hear from you. You can also follow us on Instagram at Just Do You pod. As you go out into the world today, remember to just do you. All right. Talk next week.